From: Dan [mailto:dbrindle@kondratyev.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 2:07 PM To: 928 Subject: [928] RE: Rattlin' Windows Garry, Easy problem to solve. Replace the two plastic guides that ride on the vertical post. They will not look worn but if they have much more than 20K miles then they are. DEVEK has them. There are some other parts in there - but the ones that cause the window to jump and jerk and rattle are these two little guys. I am trying to talk Tom into machining up some proto type units out of stainless or something but so far he has been too busy welling convertibles and designing custom 928 bodies. From: Jay Kempf [jkempf@tds.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 3:12 PM To: 928 Subject: [928] RE: Rattlin' Windows Garry, Dan (BZZZZZT!) I couldn't disagree more. The plastic gizmos on the guide rod have to have play in them cause the window has compound curves. There are two adjustable antirattle stops that are visible if you remove the inner rubber seal at the top of the door frame at the bottom of the window opening. I think a 4mm allen wrench to remove. These are supposed to be felt covered rubber bumpers and the glue gets old and lets go. When they fail and the window starts to rattle they will also scratch the glass and/or rip up tinting films. The rubber parts with felt attached are normally in the bottom of the door frame. Mine were. I rebuilt my bumpers with a cutting from a polarfleece jacket and some super glue. 4 years and still going strong. Don't adjust them too tight when reinstalling so the window doesn't bind anywhere in it's vertical travel. Take the opportunity WYAIT to adjust the window guides. Loosen all the fasteners until you can just move things by light prying. Then put the window all the way up and settle all the guides and the guide tube. This way you gaurantee that the system delivers the window to the proper up position. This is more important than the rest position when down. The window shouldn't bind anywhere during its travels. It takes a little messing with to get the hang of which adjustments affect which parts of the window and how they all work together. Jay Kempf From: Dan [dbrindle@kondratyev.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 3:36 PM To: 928 Subject: [928] RE: Rattlin' Windows Jay, You are off the wall here. I played with the doors for too many hours than I care to remember and it is the two guides that run on the vertical bar that cause the grief. Other adjustments are important - but it is these guys that give the nice smooth new luxury car feel to the power windows. The upper guide has a small ridge that wears easily and the lower one has some very small bumps that wear down quickly. When these go the window will rattle no matter what you do. Over compensating with the upper bumpers just does not do the trick. This is easy to miss because if you take out the guides and clean them real good they will look great. But compare them to a new one and you can see a marginal difference in wear. This difference makes the windows stop rattling. Dan B. 928 Convertible with new window guides and windows that no longer rattle. From: Joe Rausa [jgrausa@epix.net] Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 1:43 PM To: 928 Subject: [928] rattling window fix - long shark fans: For my winter project this year (albeit a small one), I chose to address the dreaded window rattle (driver's side only). There has been much discussion over the past couple years on appropriate remedies, I chose to go the whole magillia and replace the window guides which appeared to be the culprit as the felt on the "bumpers" appeared in tact. The original guides were VERY sloppy on the window rod in comparison to the new ones. The job was going smoothly, ahead of schedule, until replaceing the last bolt in the upper guide. Both bolts in the upper guide, mate to large nuts which are recessed into the window and metal window braket. As I was trying to "find the hole" for the bolt, I pushed the large nut out of the recessed portion of the window. "DOH"!!! "Not too bad", you say, except unless your fingers are 12" long you can't reach behind the window to place the large nut back in it's recess. I'm certain the window guys have a tool for this, but I didn't have it, so my option was to pull out the window - "DAMMIT". So I did, without incident, remove the window, place the nut back in the recess, then try and put the window back in with the nuts in place. There in lies the challange, pushing the window back into the door while keeping the nuts in place. Three times I tried and each time the nuts would pop out of their recess - answer - epoxy. I epoxied the nuts in place, waited over night to cure. The next morning the window was securely in place in 15 minutes. Following are a few tips: MY 1989 1)left side (driver in the US) Upper guide part No. 928 537 289 02 " " " Lower guide part No. 928 537 259 02 2) I did not need to support the window when the guides were removed. The arm from the "window lifter" runs in the same plate that holds the guide nuts in place and supported the window with the guides unbolted. To unbolt the guides, move the window so a wrench can easily access the bolts through the door access. 3) To remove the guides once they have been unbolted, I removed the entire rod. Unbolt the upper rod (two allen head bolts). The bottom of the rod fits over a pin welded into the bottom of the door. There is a rubber bushing inside the bottom of the rod which fits snuggly over this pin. There is also a 3" square rubber "stop" that fits over the bottom of the rod. The lower window guide may hit this stop at it's furthest "down" position. After the "upper" rod bolts were removed, I gently moved the rod back and forth and worked the rod off the pin in the bottom of the door. 4) Once the rod is removed, note the position of the upper and lower guides, remove the old and on with the new. 5) I used faucet grease to lube up the rod that the guides run on. Wait till you have the rod and guides bolted up before applying grease. This way you have more grease on the guides and less on your clothes. 6) If you have to remove the window, you need to have the window almost all the way down to slide the window lifter arm off the window bracket. 7) check your felt bumpers - window all the way down, pull out inside window seal, loosen bumpers with allen wrench 8) When re-installing the window, I used a piece of wood to "open" the window slot in the door a little further to give me some room. The bracket which holds the guide nuts onto the glass is a very tight fit going into the door. The factory manual says loosen or remove the felt bumpers - DON"T REMOVE THEM. You run the risk of scratching the glass if they are removed, just loosen them. Having the inside window seal removed also helped give me more room. 9) The window goes in "nose first" from outside the door - there is a pic in the manual. 10) When adjusting the window; with the window guide bolts barely loose, I ran the window to the fully closed position. I then snugged up the bolts and checked for free travel up and down the rod. 11) Watch the charge on your battery. I had not driven the shark in a couple of weeks and the constant "up/down" of the window ran the battery down. I just figured out why everyone needs a second shark. So you may apply knowledge gained when doing it "the first time". Happy New Year, Joe '89S4 From: dpbecker [dpbecker@mts.net] Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 11:49 PM To: 928 Subject: [928] WINDOW GUIDE REPAIR....finished, the full story. Hi all, I just finished my window bumper repair today.....things finished well but took quite a while (6 hours) due to a few snags. He is the whole story and some tips I learned along the way. First, start early in the day so you have extra time in case you run into trouble. Tools needed......bring your whole tool box....good for getting out of jams. But you need an Allen wrench set, also I made good use of a long claw device and a long magnet stick ( these helped me big time when I dropped bolts or the Allen wrench....twice...into the depths of the door ), a long set of curved needle nose pliers are a must unless you have tiny hands and arms nearby......hey kid come here!!.....I had to have the pliers to hold the bumper (that is closest to the hood) while I threaded the bolt that holds it in place back on. The rear bumper was not a problem at all......lots of room to maneuver through the center hole in the door. First I lowered both windows all the way. Then I removed the center panel in the door as well as the lock covers, and the inside door handle covers, released some of the top door clips by pulling outwards to give a little more room to SAFELY remove the inner window weather stripping.....just run your finger underneath and apply pressure upwards and it will pop off the ridge, pull out the front part by the mirror first and work your way back until you are an inch or two past the last bumper....STOP THERE.....you do not need to go any further and save yourself the trouble. Then I loosened, actually on the first door I totally removed the bolt and the two washers ( mistake ).....you should leave the bolt and washers hanging in there slot until it is time to re-install the bumper, this will make it easier to line things up and get the bolt started. After the bumper unit was released from the bolt I just pushed it down and let it fall into the bottom of the door (this is the front bumper and it is tough to get a hand in there ) then I used my $1.00 flex claw ( you know the tool that is a long flexible coil and you push the button on the top of it and a claw spreads out to grab things) and grabbed the bumper and handed it to my other hand at the center hole in the door. Make sure you have thick paper or cardboard to put between the metal bracket that held the bumper and the window or you will damage your tint film or window glass. The rear bumper you can grab with your hand and just slide it down and out the hole. I took a good look at the bumpers, they were worn right to the metal piece. I cut strips of Velux, a synthetic material that looks stock and is soft and durable.....total cost of the material need for all 4 bumpers was .50 cents at Fanny Fabrics. When cutting the strips, cut them a little longer and a little wider than you need and trim them after the glue has dried.....much easier this way, no hassles. I used 3-M adhesive spray #77.....worked great. I sprayed the bumper old felts, waited 20 seconds or so and placed the new strips on top and pressed into place....no problems. Just spray the bumpers, NOT the strips.....glue will get where you do not want it and it is not necessary. Also, wear rubber gloves.....I am missing my finger prints right now from scrubbing off the extra 3-M #77. I started to talk to my neighbor while the new bumpers were drying. The bumpers are a part you DO NOT WANT to but new from the dealer......they cost $30 a piece and are NOTHING.....you will be pissed off if you buy them and put them in yourself. It is just a little metal bracket with some thick felt wrapped around it. The cutting and gluing of the new felt took 5-10 minutes for all four. After my neighbor left it was time to put in my new bumpers. Remember I took out the bolt and washers?..... I put the 3 pieces together and wrapped a piece of electrician tape under and over the top......stuck my Allen wrench into the top, now it is there snug and I can lower the set up into the mounting bracket as I line up the bumper hole with it (after the bolt is threaded, use your needle nose pliers to remove the tape)......worked pretty well until one set up slipped off and into the depths......I tried my magnet stick but to no avail......so off came the door panels and I found it by the front access hole. I took the opportunity of having the door panel off to inspect my previous zip-tie fix of the widow guides....they need a few more zip-ties and better spacing. I also used my 3-M #77 spray to put back up my moisture barrier (plastic sheet) worked great. The front bumper unit is a bit of a pain in the ass to replace....I do not know what grown person can fit there hand up in the space provided....I used some long, angled needle nose pliers and did some maneuvering but managed.....GOD I LOVE THESE CARS. The rear bumper went in with little trouble and I tested the window......clunk and rattles.....the bumpers need to be properly set up/adjusted so the window slides smoothly into the top of the door seal and the window is not loose and any point from bottom to top. Basically I just put pressure with my finger, pushing the window out and slide the bumper out away from the cockpit of the car, and tighten down on the bolt.....make sure the bumpers stay flush with the window......test it out.....and tighten down for good Put the inner window seal back in and start reassembling what ever you took apart. Clean your windows.....they have dirt and grease all over them. NOTES ; the second window went much faster with my learning experience on the first one. I left the bolts in the slots and lowered the bumpers out. I loosed the door fixtures right away and popped out the top door snaps to loosen the top of the door panel and slid out the inner window seal. I already knew what to do as far as setting up the position of the bumpers before bolting them down for good. Hope this helps someone save some time and do a good job. I want to thank all of you who took time out to e-mail me info, especially Dan Brindle tips and write ups on the 928 tips page.....professional stuff. Take care, Dan 87 5 speed , black/black w/RMB & cat by-pass