>Hello to all, >My guards red paint is oxidized and "burned" very bad. Professional >detailers have told me it is time to paint. 13 years of exposure, I could >understand that. What type of paint and process did Porsche use, base >coat/clear coat? Other? Like Mike, I plan to take most of the items off the >car which would normally be taped around. I was considering taking the >front and rear bumper covers off and replacing the beading with fresh >material. Is this a total pain in the a**? Is this necessary? What about >1/4 glass and door glass moldings? Tape or remove? Body side protective >moldings? I was thinking of pulling the mirrors and headlamp buckets and >painting them off the car. Any and all comments would be greatly >appreciated. It goes in Sept. 11th and should be out by the 22nd. >Thanks in advance, >Eric Johnson >1987 928S4 auto From: Dave Shaeffer [blauhai@sprynet.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 10:44 AM To: 928 Subject: [928] Re: Painting the car questions for Mike Briggs and other with experience. Hi Eric, Bottom line on paint = money. The farther you strip the car (of parts and old finish), the better the results of a paint job. While good results can be obtained "taping out" certain areas, these areas will be more prone to chipping, lifting etc. As to clear coats. Porsche did/does not typically clear coat solid non-metallic colors such as guards red. That being said, you will get better results (in the long run) using a base coat/clear coat system, provided it is of high quality. DuPont Chroma series, PPG Delstar, Glasruit, Sikkens, etc. The latest clear coats are loaded with UV protection, and will give you a much richer, deeper finish. A common "trick" of custom painters when clear coating solid colors (like red, black, etc) is to mix a bit of the color in with the initial clear coats for a really deep, wet look. Below are some basic guidelines and info. Hope you find it helpful. One-part enamels: Don't waste you time or money. Two-part enamels (ie. DuPont Imron, a catalyzed polyurethane enamel) Advantages - Good gloss, very hard, durable. Disadvantages - (some say too brittle), can be tricky to touch-up or repair, expensive. Base coat/clear coat: (Two basic types) "Traditional" Lacquer: Advantages - Easiest to shoot, beautiful, deep finish, great for rarely driven show cars. Disadvantages - Fragile, prone to damage from hard water, chemicals, bird droppings. Not recommended for daily drivers. Catalyzed urethane: (Most common) Advantages - Best UV protection for paint, "show car" deep, wet gloss, very chemical resistant, easy to touch-up. Results equal to or better than lacquer in depth and gloss. Shallow defects can be "finessed" out without disturbing the base color below. Disadvantages - Mostly cost. About $250.00 a gallon for high quality. One thing to bear in mind. The single most important factor in determining the final quality of a paint job is preparation. That is; proper stripping, sanding, filling, priming. That is why (as a _general_ rule) it is best to remove as many parts, and as much of the old finish as your budget will allow. Best always, Dave From: Michael S Briggs [msbriggs@hopper.unh.edu] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 11:19 AM To: 928 Subject: [928] Re: Painting the car questions for Mike Briggs and other with experience. On Thu, 31 Aug 2000, Eric L. Johnson wrote: > coat/clear coat? Other? Like Mike, I plan to take most of the items off the > car which would normally be taped around. I was considering taking the > front and rear bumper covers off and replacing the beading with fresh > material. Is this a total pain in the a**? Is this necessary? What about Taking the bumper covers off is essentially necessary, but you don't have to replace the beading (unless yours is in bad shape of course). I'm still using my original beading, and it's in nice shape. > 1/4 glass and door glass moldings? Tape or remove? Body side protective All window trim/moldings should be removed, some say the quarter qlass should be too (mine stayed in). I replaced all the trim pieces around the quarter panel windows ($$$! ouchie! I think all the pieces added up to around $150-200 each side), and the door window seals (ouchie again. $250 each door for the upper and lower pieces). If your trim pieces aren't bent (my 1/4 glass ones were), then you're probably better of just repainting them instead of replacing them. > moldings? I was thinking of pulling the mirrors and headlamp buckets and Yup, they should come off too. Also things like windshield wipers, windshield washer jets, and so on. > painting them off the car. Any and all comments would be greatly > appreciated. It goes in Sept. 11th and should be out by the 22nd. Ha! Mine was supposed to take 2-3 weeks, ended up being over 3 months. A quality job should take at least a couple weeks I think, since they need to allow time for the primer and paint to cure between coats (also if they do the disassembly/assembly, that takes time). Here's a tip - if your seats aren't nice and soft, while it's in the paint shop would be a good time to take the seats out and give them a couple weeks treatment of Surflex Leather Softener (coat the leather, wrap in seran wrap, and let sit), as I described on my web page). Also, if you have any interest in any body mods (like the 928 SP side panels that are on mine now, or changing to GTS mirrors, etc.) now is the time to do it. Mike 86 5spd From: Jim [jim@928intl.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 12:55 PM To: 928 Subject: [928] RE: Painting the car questions for Mike Briggs and other with experience. The front and rear covers ,side skirts ,side protection moldings all should be stripped of paint before refinishing , If they are painted over the old finish the paint is too thick to flex and will crack very easily . How many of you have seen spiderweb cracks on the front and rear covers ?? these are the result of just blowing a coat of paint over the old finish . To get a decent paint job the front and rear covers need to come off the car , the rear 1/4 windows removed , door handle lock cylinders mirrors etc removed . I always do my own body work , dent repair and sanding and re-assembly . Be very careful about how someone removes lights often they cut the wires and butt connect them back together --that way they can reconnect the red wire to the red , blue to blue ; they do not need to remember which plug goes to which connector . I used to spray my own cars but the good paint now is nasty stuff plus a painter who just sprays all the time should be pretty good at it . The new clearcoat is sprayed over the wet color coat and melts into it and provides U V protection and better gloss . Doing much of the labor and prep plus reassemble I can get a good paint job for about $1,000. The painter will paint the car in a couple of hours . Jim Bailey 928 International jim@928intl.com 79 928 5spd 80 928 5spd 68 911 5spd From: Dave Shaeffer [blauhai@sprynet.com] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 8:22 PM To: 928 Subject: [928] Re: Glasurit paint >Greetings to the List: > >Is Glasurit paint a lacquer? Hi Mike, Glasurit (made by BASF) makes many types of paint systems. The commonly referred to high-end Glasurit is a base coat (color) clear coat system. It is no better or worse than any other high-end paint system from other manufacturers such as DuPont Chroma Premier Series, Sikkens, PPG, etc, etc. The clear being a catalyzed urethane or polyurethane enamel. Most factory "top coat" paints are thermo-set enamels that catalyze at temps of 250 F and above. They contain resins (such as melamine and others) for toughness. Whereas the aftermarket stuff is cured by use of a catalyst. Most paint "experts" feel that the high-end "aftermarket" base coat/clear coat systems are just as tough/durable (if done properly) as a factory job, perhaps sacrificing only a bit of chip resistance. Then there are the two-part enamels (Imron and such). These are a bitch to shoot, and repair, and they can be brittle and prone to cracking and chipping. Had a car painted (not by me) with that crap... never again! Stripped it and shot it with a base coat/clear coat. Might be good for planes and such but....... So, to answer your question, no, it's not a lacquer. In most states (and many countries, including Germany) lacquers (acrylic or otherwise) are no longer legal due to regulations regarding putting VOC's into the air. Because lacquer relies on the evaporation of solvents to cure, it out gasses those solvents into the atmosphere. The catalyzed paints have much lower solvent content, and therefore put less nasties into the air. >Is stripping and repainting with base coat/clear coat a purist no-no? Depends on weather the "orginal" paint was a base coat/clear coat. General rule of thumb for Porsche. Solid, on-metallic paints are not clear coated (at least in the past, this my now be different). >Will the "OBs" (Old Buggers) view this with reproachment and general >disapproval? Who the hell cares? Are they paying the bill or maintaining your car. Bottom line is this. Today's base coat/clear coat systems are superior in _every_ way to non-clear coat paints. They offer far superior UV protection and, if chipped or bruised (in all but the most severe case where the chip is to the primer or bare metal) can be easily touched-up and blended. >I am the sort that likes to keep a car in its original condition but the >paint on my car is past that point. > >Thanks, > >Mike Gainey >86.5 Dunkleblau Auto >High Speed Vacuum and Electrical Training Aid My advice (and merely my opinion) if you're planning on keeping the car, put the best base coat/clear coat paint on it you can afford. It will last much longer, and look better longer. And, unless it's going to be a trailer-ed, seldom driven concours car, weather or not it has a clear coat on it will only make a difference to you. If your paint is the same Dunkelblau as I had on my '86 Carrera (non-metallic), you'll be _much_ happier with a good clear coat over it. Personally, it drove me NUTS to have dark blue stains on the polishing cloth every time I waxed the damned "factory" paint. Reds, and dark colors will simply fade less and last longer with a clear coat. Hope that helps. Best always, Dave From: Dan Brindle [mailto:dbrindle@kondratyev.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 2:38 AM To: 928 Subject: [928] RE: Paint Job -----Original Message----- Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:58:46 -0500 (CDT) From: "Todd" Subject: Paint Job Just out of curiosity,,, The paint on my "Old Paint" is getting pretty oxidized/old. I am considering a new paint job, (red over the original red) but before I go getting estimates, I was wondering if anyone here has experience with a ballpark price I should be expecting? I have some minor scrapes that need fixed, but other than that there is no bodywork involved. I was hoping to do this "glass out" for the best OEM look. I am not expecting to do a $199 "maaco.com" job, but I dont want to get ripped off, either. I am guessing $2500? Also, what type of warranty is should I expect? I am afraid that I will shell out the cash and 2 years later I will get flaking and cracks. I guess I am most concerned about the front and read bumpers. Pliable plastic seems to me like it would be pretty tough to paint. Help? -- Todd 78 5sp Red/Black Serial 120, 80K www.928world.com Todd, Paint varies greatly in price and quality. Today most paint jobs are done as two parts. There is a base coat followed by a clear coat. Most of the colors for the 928 were two part jobs, with the exception of the red. One of the reasons the red oxidizes as quickly as it does is the lack of a clear coat. If I were to repaint a red car I would be sure to use a clear coat. I will tell you this up front - expect to pay more for a red paint job. Red paints are more expensive and the people who own red (and black) cars are generally more difficult to deal with. I am sure you do not fall into this category, but you will have to pay dues for others. Shops know this and factor it into the price. The 928 is a difficult car to paint. There are a lot of parts that need to be removed and some of them can be damaged in the process. Adding to the expense is the intolerance of some parts of the car to support multiple coats of paint. The bumpers are plastic, the finders, doors, read deck and hood are aluminum. The rest of the body is steel with a galvanize coating. The bumpers should be stripped. Paint build up will simply cause the new paint to crack. They should be sealed and finished with flexible primer. SEM makes a great product. Both coats of paint should be mixed with a flex agent. Often shops will only put flex agent in one coat. The paints used on the 928 were good for their day. There was a period of time when paint formulas were changing on a regular basis to meet EPA requirements. This has stabilized out with excellent formulas. New paint put on your car should last the rest of your life. I use the Dupont Chroma system. I have high respect of the "House of Color" products too. Given today's technology it is probably unwise to insist on the original German products. In particular, since yours is a 78 this was the period when the worst paints were being made. The aluminum parts can be repainted, however it is not a bad idea to have the hood and front fenders stripped. These are the areas with the most stone chips and have most likely been repainted at one time in the past. I would not have the steel parts of the body stripped unless absolutely necessary - only if you find rust. If there is rust on the car it should be stripped of all paint, treated to neutralize the rust and treated with a galvanize treatment before primer. SEM makes a very good rust neutralizer. If you strip the hood and fenders be sure to use a sealer and an etching primer. It is possible to paint these parts off the car and assemble them later. The following should be removed 1. All lights. 2. The front and rear bumpers 3. The mirrors. - it is very difficult to get the right flow of paint on the doors with the mirrors in place. 4. The door gaskets 5. The front cowl by the windshield wipers. 6. The rear hatch gasket and if possible the rear hatch. 7. Window trim around the front and rear windows 8. The rear quarter windows. These should be resealed when installed to prevent leaking. 9. The gas cap cover 10. all locks Optionally 1. The channel rails along the roof. 2. The door handles 3. The door window trim. I list these separately as they are difficult to remove without damage. The door handles are not easily damaged by a pain to remove. If you do not remove them you will get over spray and roughness around them. The roof channels can be left in place, but you take the chance of later chipping. I prefer to leave the door window trim in place and mask around it. It is pain to remove and expensive to purchase. Careful detailing can hide any evidence of a paint job. I generally touch up the trim with trim paint after the rest of the job is complete. The lower rocker panels have a rubberized stone guard applied to them. Over time the stone guard gets chipped and washed off - especially from the rear of the back fenders. There is a German UPOL product that can be sprayed or sponged on to match the original finish. This should be done before as part of the paint prep. You can save a great deal of money and get a better job if you do the assembly and disassembly. Many shops will claim they will remove all of these components and then just mask many of them to save time. Be prepared to replace a number of rubber gaskets like around the side lights and around the door windows. Do not trivialize the cost of Porsche factory rubber in your estimate of the job. Finally to get a show level job be prepared to hand color sand the final clear coat with 2500 grit paper and buff it out to a mirror finish. Good luck. Considering the low number of your car, it is probably worth the extra effort to get a high quality job. The shop should be willing to guarantee the job for at least 5 years against fading, cracking and peeling. Be sure to have them put the guarantee in writing. With a clear coat you should never see any oxidizing of the color. Dan the Pod Guy Portia's Parts